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唐装,唐人街....?

Bohan   December 22nd, 2012 9:11a.m.

Why is the 唐装 called 唐装? According to Wikipedia, it's from the Qing Dynasty.

Why is Chinatown called 唐人街?

pts   December 22nd, 2012 10:21a.m.

Since the Chinese people is comprised of many ethnic groups, like the Mongolians or Tibetans, so there is a need for some more precise terms than the mere 中国人 to describe them. We can often hear the Han Chinese ethnic group calling themselves as 汉人or 唐人. (since 汉朝 and 唐朝 are the two most prosperous dynasties in Chinese history.) Usually the northerners call themselves as 汉人 while the southerners as 唐人, but both the 汉人 and 唐人 belong to the same Han ethnic group. Here they mean “descendants from those dynasties” and not “people living in those dynasties”.

As the terms evolves, 唐 and 汉 are used to describe anything Chinese. And 唐 becomes an antonym to 洋。 唐装 is an antonym to 洋服 or 西服.

Also, since most overseas Chinese people are from the south, so it is just logical that they called the streets where they live in as 唐人街.

Bohan   December 22nd, 2012 10:44a.m.

okay cool, but I've never heard any southern Chinese ppl calling themselves 唐人。

Thanks for the explanation!

pts   December 22nd, 2012 10:47a.m.

Just visit any Chinatown and chat with them. You will hear that term.

Bohan   December 22nd, 2012 10:54a.m.

oh, well, I generally don't consider those people as "Chinese people", unless they are new to whatever place they are in. If it's the San Francisco Chinatown, I consider them to be Americans. If it's a Thai Chinatown, I consider them to Thai.

So, what I meant in my previous post was, I've never heard any Chinese people in China say that they're 唐人. Never once, in either China or Taiwan

pts   December 22nd, 2012 4:54p.m.

You are correct in pointing out that the people in Chinatown are actually Americans or Thai people. But they are unwilling to admit it. So they'd tend to say “我是唐人.” This refers to their culture, where they come from (唐山) but reveals nothing of their nationality.

JB   December 24th, 2012 11:14a.m.

Are you guys serious? They aren't "Chinese people"?? They are actually Americans but unwilling to admit it?

I can't tell you how many people I met in Manhattan Chinatown who could not speak English and had no plan to. Heck, there are massive sections of people who speak no Mandarin, only Fujianese, Guangdong or other dialects. I once witnessed a person who could only speak Cantonese Taishan dialect and Mandarin have a "conversation" with a person who only spoke a Fuzhou dialect. That was in Manhattan Chinatown, a ten minute walk from Wall Street. You think those people are American?

In America I think there are probably three types of Chinese in Chinatowns. One is the rich assimilated type, who speaks English, is a citizen, and has no plan to go back to China. Two is the rich Chinese national type, who is making loads of money in America but plans to use the money in China. The third is the new immigrant who is scraping by to pay off the debt incurred by their snakehead-fueled trip out of China, and hopes to become type one or two.

Linguistically and culturally, most of the people in Chinatown are "Chinese people" regardless of whether they call themselves 中国人 or 台湾人 or 华人 or 华侨 or 唐人 or any other number of designations.
龙的传人? Haha.

Don't you guys know, 中国文化博大精深!!!!

p.s. Lots of people I've met in China think that 唐人街 is just one street located somewhere in America.

p.p.s. There are tourist locations in China called 唐人街

JB   December 24th, 2012 11:22a.m.

By the way, I'm pretty sure the majority of Chinese immigrants do not come from 唐山 Tangshan, which is a city in Hebei province.

pts   December 24th, 2012 12:17p.m.

The 臺灣閩南語常用詞辭典 at http://twblg.dict.edu.tw/holodict_new/index.html explains 唐山 as follows: 海外華僑對中國的稱呼。以前海外各地的中國人多來自背山面海的閩粵,愈向內地深入,山勢愈高,整個中國在印象中成了高不可測的大山,再與歷史上聲威遠播的唐相聯,遂有唐山一稱。臺灣光復前,因孤懸海外,又為外族占據,所以民間亦稱中國大陸為「唐山」。A lot of those using the term “唐山”do not speak putonghua but some southern dialects like 閩南語. So, a 閩南語 dictionary is more appropriate in explaining its meaning.

Then 唐人 is different from 中国人 or 台湾人. The latter two are linked with some governments. 唐人 is used intentionally to avoid that link. It is apolitical. It refers to a blood relation, a culture. It's not with the communist party nor the 国民党. And this is one of the reasons why this term is seldom heard in the mainland, where the emphasis is in 爱国爱党. Its use is simply discouraged there.

JB   December 25th, 2012 1:54a.m.

I'm aware of the implication of 唐人.

And while I can't speak for all the Chinatowns in the world, I do have to say that in the years I lived in Manhattan Chinatown, I never once heard anyone voluntarily refer to themselves as 唐人. I have asked a lot of Chinese people about this question, both in Chinatown and Mainland, young people, old people, ABC, Chinatown newcomers and oldtimers. If you ask them, "are you 唐人?" of course they'll say yes. But if you asked them about their nationality, ethnicity, hometown, etc., I'm pretty sure 唐人 is not going to jump to their lips unless you ask about it.

If someone asked me "Are you North American?" of course I would say yes. But I would never think to say that in response to someone asking, or if I was doing some sort of self-introduction. I think 唐人 is a similar designation.

Bohan   December 25th, 2012 5:04a.m.

@JB your first post on this thread was legendary, hahaha. Like it a lot.

Thanks to both of you for the thourough replies!

Merry Christmas :)

JB   December 25th, 2012 10:19p.m.

Haha, thanks! ^^

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